[00:02] We are continuing with the recorded proffer of Miss Maxwell.
[00:07] The time is now 3:10 p.m., Thursday, July 24th.
[00:14] Um, my colleagues alluded me to a couple of questions.
[00:17] I think I may have forgotten to ask you.
[00:21] Um, one is, sorry, I'm just going through my notes.
[00:37] Well, we talked to a minute ago about this birthday book that Sergeant pressed about.
[00:41] I understand you don't remember anything with President Trump or a lot about the book anyway.
[00:47] Um, do you remember asking President Trump to submit a letter for that?
[00:52] I do not.
[00:53] Um, and do you remember, um, would you have been the one to do that or could somebody else would somebody else have done that?
[01:07] Um, I did ask some people.
[01:09] I don't remember Mr. Trump.
[01:11] I don't remember who I did ask, but Epstein also asked people himself directly.
[01:16] Okay.
[01:16] So that could have happened that way if it happened at all.
[01:35] Where is it?
[01:36] You mentioned Ehu Barak.
[01:38] Yes.
[01:38] What was his involvement?
[01:41] Um, this would have been in the later 2000s.
[01:46] So, I do not know um how they met, but I do know that that they, I don't know if friendly would be the right word.
[01:55] I don't I don't know that, but I know that they saw each other and only because um my father, you know, anything that touches Israel or the state of Israel.
[02:09] I'm I'm always interested in because my father loved Israel and and so I pay attention to it and we have ties to, you know, to Israel.
[02:17] When you say it was later, does Ties meaning friends and family, relations.
[02:26] Mr. Barack, Barack, do you know what the nature of his relationship was with Mr. Epstein?
[02:35] I don't.
[02:37] Do you know were you ever with them together?
[02:40] I I think I met I have a memory of meeting who, but I don't know if he was with Epstein or I I don't remember.
[02:48] I just know that I did see him and I I'm I'm struggling to remember the context around it.
[02:53] But if I it I'm sure it happened, but it must have been very brief because I I don't have any serious memory of it.
[03:01] Any like deep memory of it.
[03:03] And maybe this is obvious.
[03:04] And maybe it comes also because I've read it in the press that maybe something that brought it to my memory.
[03:08] So that's also, I mean, I'm also, I think the press has been very contaminating, so I just it's hard sometimes to separate those stories from, you know, your memory sometimes.
[03:23] Do you know um of of a British gymnast by the name of Heather Man?
[03:28] Yes.
[03:30] Did did she I didn't know she was a gymnast.
[03:33] Oh, okay.
[03:34] I'm I'm reading something that says she was a gymnast, but so don't us, please don't assume that that's correct based upon my words.
[03:40] Okay.
[03:40] Um, did she ever travel with you and or Mr. Epstein?
[03:45] I yeah, she did actually.
[03:47] I think that she might have been one of Mr. Epstein's girlfriends at some point.
[03:52] Um, what again, I know we're talking about time periods that are vast.
[03:56] what time period would that have been?
[04:00] Like after you like since 2000.
[04:03] I I want to say I don't know could be in the 90s could be in the 90s.
[04:07] I don't know.
[04:08] But I mean, listen, there are people that pop out of the woodwork all the time.
[04:12] I just saw one on TV saying she was his girlfriend in 93 and 94.
[04:19] He obviously was very busy.
[04:24] Um, where is she flying?
[04:26] All of us that.
[04:27] Did someone named Mark Middleton?
[04:30] Yes, I remember him.
[04:31] He was um in the Mr. Clinton's administration, President Clinton's.
[04:36] I think.
[04:36] And how do you do you know him?
[04:38] I well, I met him and that is I met him through Mr. Epstein.
[04:43] Um, and do you was he from what you observed, was he a friend or business acquaintance of Mr. Epstein?
[04:57] Um, I mean, I only saw him a handful of times, but I did see him with him and he seemed friendly.
[05:03] I I don't know if I would characterize.
[05:05] I mean, I haven't seen him briefly.
[05:07] I don't know how to characterize that.
[05:09] Do you know whether he like flew on airplanes with Mr. Epstein?
[05:11] Did he visit the island?
[05:13] Do you know anything about that or their relations where it relates to that?
[05:16] I never I don't have any recollection of seeing Mark Middleton at the island.
[05:23] Um, how about former US Senator George Mitchell?
[05:26] Yeah, I do remember George.
[05:28] What do you remember about him?
[05:29] I traveled with him.
[05:31] Uh we went to the most memorable trip.
[05:35] I went to well, I I was friendly with his wife, start with that, with Heather.
[05:42] And Heather was in New York, so I hung out with her a few times.
[05:46] We have dinners and I was just friendly, I would say.
[05:49] Separately with separately from her husband.
[05:53] Uh and we friends with Heather.
[05:54] I I met Heather through her husband, but we became friends.
[05:57] You became friends with with Heather.
[05:59] Yes.
[06:00] Was Mr. Epstein friends with um Mr. Mitchell?
[06:05] Yes.
[06:05] Did they travel together besides New York?
[06:08] Did they travel to the island or to New Mexico?
[06:11] I I don't remember George ever at the island, but the most memorable trip I I do recall with Senator was to Italy.
[06:18] Was to where?
[06:19] To Italy.
[06:20] Oh, okay.
[06:21] We went to Rome.
[06:24] As um the four of you.
[06:26] So Heather and Mr. Mitchell and you and Mr. Epstein?
[06:28] I that's my recollection.
[06:32] And what were you there for?
[06:34] Visit.
[06:35] Well, the most memorable aspect of that trip was we went to the Vatican.
[06:40] And it was extraordinary.
[06:42] And the most extraordinary thing was going to the up to the archives and holding Henry VIII's um document to the Pope asking for his divorce.
[07:01] Um, do you know the former President of Columbia, Andre Pastrana?
[07:04] Yes.
[07:05] How do you know him?
[07:18] I met Andre Pastrana in a pub in Dublin.
[07:24] And did he travel with Mr. Epstein that you know of?
[07:35] Um, I don't I don't know if if I don't know if he was ever on the plane.
[07:40] I don't know if he ever I don't think he ever came to the island.
[07:45] But um, I went two places with um Andre Pastrana.
[07:52] One was to Colombia and Epstein came for that.
[07:56] And the other was to Cuba and Epstein was I think was there.
[08:01] And what were the purposes of traveling to to Columbia and Cuba?
[08:10] Um, I'm a helicopter pilot and Andre is a helicopter pilot.
[08:20] And um, we just became friends and I flew a black Hawk in Colombia.
[08:29] And how about to Cuba?
[08:31] Um, my I have a friend of mine who uh was the cigar distributor for um, Monte Cristos maybe.
[08:42] I can't remember which cigar it was.
[08:44] And uh so we went there and he organized the trip and um we met Pido Castro.
[08:52] When was that approximately?
[09:06] Had to be had to be 2002, 2003.
[09:12] Okay.
[09:12] Something like that, I think.
[09:14] Uh there's some more names that we might talk about tomorrow with the same type of questions.
[09:20] Just but as far as a catch all, there's been a tremendous amount of um public information about all kinds of in of names including some of the folks we talked about today and their relationship with Mr. Epstein and or you.
[09:36] for for any of the folks that we've talked about today, did you observe them doing anything improper with Mr. Epstein, whether with maseuses or with women who are are girls who are traveling or at the residence that they were at or at the parties that they were at?
[09:54] I did not ever at any time see that.
[09:57] Um, and for any of the names we've talked about today, and then tomorrow we'll talk about some more, but for today, um, do you recall having any conversations with anybody else where they reported to you that they had seen something that one of these individuals had done, whether someone else that works with Mr. Epstein or somebody that observed something?
[10:20] If anybody had ever reported anything, first of all the answer to that is no.
[10:23] and I just want to be clear that had anybody ever reported anything illegal or disgusting like that, I would have immediately done something.
[10:37] And I never heard it, I never saw it and no one ever ever ever complained to me or tears nothing like that.
[10:42] Okay.
[10:43] All right, so we took a break when we were talking about um, Mr. Epstein and his death.
[10:49] Oh.
[10:49] Bless you.
[10:52] Sorry, it's okay, take it time.
[10:58] So um, so Mr. Epstein and his um death.
[11:06] So you you were not obviously at the MCC during that time, correct?
[11:13] Thank you.
[11:14] Thanks.
[11:16] I thought you were giving it to me.
[11:17] See, I I've got something blue up my nose.
[11:21] So, just take some water, it's okay.
[11:23] No problem.
[11:26] Um, you were not at the MCC during that time, correct?
[11:29] I was not.
[11:30] So you're going to tell us what you believe, but just to I just want to make sure I I understand your basis for belief is kind of what you've read and seen and your knowledge of Mr. Epstein for the many years you knew them, knew him, right?
[11:50] Um and actually there's a third component.
[11:52] Okay.
[11:52] The answer to that is yes, and there's a third component which is uh having experienced now, uh the mismanagement and inefficiencies and total dereliction of duty at the Bureau of Prisons.
[12:12] From BOP, from the Bureau of Prison.
[12:14] Okay, fair.
[12:16] Okay, so, you know, I I want to what I do want to be careful about is you know, asking you to speculate because because anybody can do that and and I don't think that's fair to you or anybody else to ask you to give us your kind of opinion.
[12:33] But um, do you think that the the third point you say, which is which is kind of a failure by the BOP, there's been a lot of there's OIG report, there's NY investigation about that.
[12:48] Um, do you so you think he was he was he did not die by suicide given all the things we just talked about?
[12:55] I do not believe he died by suicide.
[12:57] No.
[12:57] And do you believe that um, do you have any speculation or view of who killed him?
[13:05] I no, I don't.
[13:07] And I ask that because if you don't believe that there's any truth to the allegations of blackmail or um that that he had kind of a list or that he had reasons to um have people hate him.
[13:28] Um, why would somebody kill him in prison?
[13:35] In prison where I am, they will kill you or they will hey, somebody can pay a prisoner to kill you for 20 $25 worth of commissary is about the going rate for a hit with a lock today.
[13:58] So that goes to the the third reason which is kind of the mismanagement or the the the short fallings or shortcomings of the Bureau prisons.
[14:07] Yes.
[14:08] Yes.
[14:08] Um, which is a little bit different than my my question.
[14:11] which is um, do you think there's somebody on the outside of prison?
[14:15] So putting aside what could happen on the inside, on the outside of prison who would who wanted him dead so badly that he would have or she would have you know, caused him to be killed on the inside.
[14:28] I think that's I I don't see that.
[14:31] I think is it possible?
[14:33] Of course, it's possible, but I don't know of any reason why and I don't believe in the blackmail or in any of this.
[14:39] I don't think Epstein had a hit on like that.
[14:42] If it if it is indeed murder, I believe it was an internal situation.
[14:48] Yeah, so you're not you don't have any reason first hand knowledge or even speculation it sounds like to think that um that he was if that he was killed to kind of silence him or to keep him from going public about people he he knew about.
[15:03] I don't.
[15:04] No, because I I I think that is just part of the story that's been created that started back in 20089.
[15:14] Okay.
[15:15] Yeah, I mean, that's the point.
[15:16] Like I I don't want I don't think there's value in talking, you know, there's there's been a lot of there's a lot of information about what happened, you know, in the MCC and and but what is important to me is is whether, you know, if if is the idea that that he didn't die by suicide.
[15:36] That's one thing, but if if to the extent that folks believe that he was murdered to keep him quiet or because he had information on rich and powerful people, that's what I do you have any reason to believe that that's true?
[15:50] I do not have any reason to believe that and I I also think it's ludicrous because if that I also happen to think if that is what they wanted, they would have had plenty of opportunity when he wasn't in jail.
[16:01] If you were worried about blackmail or anything from him, he would have been a very easy target.
[16:09] In the time so we've talked about a lot of time all the way up through 200910 and then your the time that after Mr.ton was arrested.
[16:21] When's the last time you spoke with him?
[16:39] Maybe 2016, 2017, maybe 2016.
[16:45] 2015, 2016, 2017 in that area, I believe.
[16:50] And what what when you're thinking about that last time, was that you had been talking to him a lot and then you stopped or was that a one-off time and it was infrequent at that time?
[16:59] I I I really wasn't in communication.
[17:02] The only communications I had with him was in with regards to the civil suits that the civil suits I found myself in, the defamation suit I found myself in.
[17:10] I needed help.
[17:12] I needed information and I I didn't have what I needed.
[17:23] And so that was really what it was that what drove it was me trying to get myself out of this situation which I ultimately led to where I am today.
[17:36] And so when when all that when that I don't remember even if I stopped talking to him before that.
[17:42] I think he wasn't I thought he was angry with me anyway.
[17:45] He didn't like what I did.
[17:47] I wasn't wasn't interested in what he had to say to me.
[17:50] What what what did you think he was angry with you about?
[17:53] I think he was angry that I had even said that uh I had referred to to her being a liar.
[18:00] He said I should have not said anything, but um when when the civil suits that were ongoing before Mr. Epstein's death, yes.
[18:11] Um, did your lawyers coordinate with his lawyers like in discovery and things like that on anything.
[18:16] I don't I don't think we coordinated in I don't I'm not sure.
[18:20] Okay.
[18:20] I I don't want to miss speak.
[18:23] I don't I there was some degree of communication for sure.
[18:32] Uh, I just don't know the degree that that took place.
[18:39] So definitely, I mean, I was definitely hoping for him to be more helpful and I was definitely coordinating's not a good word because that sounds like I was trying to make align myself.
[18:54] That's not what we were going here, but I was definitely trying to get help as in documents or information that I could use to defend myself.
[19:03] That's 100% true.
[19:05] And the degree to which that took place, I'm not I don't I don't recall.
[19:13] There was definitely some of that though.
[19:15] I don't I don't want to mislead you.
[19:17] We touched on this earlier, but I I just want to I don't think we really ran it to ground maybe as much as we could like going up through that time, you know, so in the 16, 17, 18 up until the time he's arrested, um, had your view or your understanding of what had happened changed, um, meaning, did you believe that in the late 90s or early 2000s when when he started, you know, behaving much differently, did you did you believe what you were hearing about him at that point?
[19:56] My views I didn't like the people he was with anyway.
[20:00] So I I I don't find um how can I say this?
[20:10] I don't like.
[20:11] I like people who are my age or older.
[20:15] And I don't find the society of or the companionship of younger people who are younger people, I suppose, really that enjoyable.
[20:32] So I don't like the company that he chose to be with.
[20:37] And so I just was find it boring and fundamentally uninteresting.
[20:44] It's probably the nicest way I could say it.
[20:46] Yeah.
[20:47] Okay.
[20:49] So I I think what we should do is just spend a few minutes talking about tomorrow.
[20:58] Um, everything was great today.
[21:00] I think that we it was very helpful and and I appreciate you um trying to be as complete as you can.
[21:08] I think tomorrow you've said a few things today about materials that you brought.
[21:14] Um, when we're done, we'll give you a few minutes with with Mr. Marcus to to if there's things that you want to show him that you think we should see.
[21:24] Like I said, I'm not asking you to collaborate anything.
[21:27] If I was asking you to collaborate something, I would tell you.
[21:29] But if there's something you think that that you don't think that the government has seen or you think that is important for me to see, um, let Mr. Marcus know and and and he can he can share it with me.
[21:42] Um, tomorrow, I think well, we'll certainly have some follow on questions when we we all think about tonight and and I think you will too.
[21:50] You know, we can we can all think about stuff we've talked about.
[21:52] We covered a lot of different areas.
[21:54] We are, I do want to talk about uh more about you.
[21:59] So um by design today we wanted to focus on Mr. Epstein and talk about, you know, kind of well, everything under the sun that we've gone through today.
[22:10] Um, I do think it's important when when we all evaluate what you've said today and and kind of your story to understand to also understand your why you're here, right?
[22:25] So you you were indicted, you were charged, you went to trial.
[22:30] Um, and and I want to do that in a way that gives you an opportunity to to to say to kind of say your peace or to say what you you what you haven't said before.
[22:38] Um, but also understanding that there was a people who took the witness stand and sort to tell the truth and and testified about you and what you did and what they think you saw and what they heard you say.
[22:53] And um, and and I I'm not I I said to Mr. Marcus, I'm not trying to create a um kind of a she said, she said situation or he said, she said situation, but I do want to hear from you about your conduct because um, it's important I think for when we evaluate what you say and how you say it and and and um your recollection of things to also to talk about that.
[23:22] So we we're going to do we'll do that tomorrow.
[23:24] I want to talk about, you know, the circumstant leading up to your arrest.
[23:27] There's a lot of I think misinformation or there's a lot of information out there that I don't know whether it's misinformation but about the time from um, you know, 2019 up until the time that that that you were that you were arrested.
[23:43] And then like I said, that'll take us through lunch tomorrow and then and then we'll we'll be done.
[23:47] I'm not I I I don't have a plan.
[23:50] I didn't know that I was coming here until this week.
[23:54] Okay?
[23:55] So I'm not there isn't like a um we don't have like a schedule of what happens next or what happens.
[24:05] Um, but that's not a negative thing.
[24:08] I'm just saying that that's so so you shouldn't take the lack of a a next step as anything other than we don't have a next step yet.
[24:17] So, um, May I say something?
[24:19] Of course, yes.
[24:20] Uh I just would like to put out there that I also focused on how I think the president got swept into some of this unnecessarily, by the way.
[24:32] And I'm not a conspiracy theorist and I certainly don't subscribe to all the all of everything that I see, but I do believe that there is animus in some areas that may have contributed to how the the use of the president to harm him that I find deeply offensive.
[24:59] And whilst I can't obviously say um definitively that that is what it is, I would like to show you what I see so that you can evaluate it and do with that as you see fit if it needs to be addressed.
[25:15] I've seen it.
[25:17] It struck me and I would like to give it to you for what it's worth.
[25:21] Okay.
[25:22] Does that seem something that I can Yeah, that's fine.
[25:24] Yeah.
[25:25] And as I don't like.
[25:27] Okay.
[25:28] That's fine.
[25:29] That's great.
[25:30] Um, okay.
[25:32] So why don't we stop for today?
[25:34] We'll give you a little bit of time to chat and then um I'll see you in the morning.
[25:40] Thanks.
[25:40] Thanks.
[25:43] This will conclude the recorded proffer interview for Thursday, July 24th.
[25:50] We will continue tomorrow, Friday, July 25th.
[25:54] The time is 3:34.
audio/doj-30d0882266d65268.wav
{}