[00:00] We are resuming from break, the time is 10:49 on Friday, July 25th.
[00:09] All right.
[00:14] Um, So, we've talked around this issue, but what talked about a little bit, I want to spend the next hour or so or however long it takes.
[00:40] Um, When when you, when we, I want to talk focus kind of exclusively on Epstein and like his criminal conduct with respect to women.
[01:01] Um, Do you, you said yesterday a couple of times that like you now kind of recognize or or or think that there was things that he did that you didn't know about and that that he, um, kept from you or or that you didn't see.
[01:31] What did you see?
[01:32] So, you said yesterday, and I I'm not I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but at some point he was getting massages seven days a week, sometimes multiple massages a day, women have said that that that were there that that say they were there giving him massages, said that that those included some sort of sexual conduct to however you define that in the broadest sense, not just a traditional massage regularly.
[02:06] So, what do you what did you see and hear at the time?
[02:18] And then, I think let's start from what you saw and heard at the time.
[02:25] Now that you've been through what you've been through and and heard people say what they've said and read what they've read, what do you, where does that leave you in your mind with what happened?
[02:36] Okay.
[02:37] So, I saw Epstein with women.
[02:47] I mean what I mean by that is he would have women around him or women on the plane or women in his house, or that's how I'm explaining that.
[03:06] Those women were very interested.
[03:13] What my my characterization of the the relationships between all women that I saw with him and him was characterized by, excuse me, their interest in him as I, as I would see it.
[03:42] And by that I mean I never saw anybody who didn't want to be with him.
[03:53] I mean be with him maybe socially or whatever.
[03:55] I never saw anybody not on their any form of duress in any type of situation where they weren't as as as I would characterize it looking uncomfortable or in any way distressed.
[04:12] In the entire time I was with him, traveled with him, I never saw that.
[04:20] So anytime I saw anybody with him, they were happy to be with him.
[04:25] He would ask people all the time if whoever you were to massage his feet.
[04:34] This was he'd be sitting there and he'd have somebody massage his feet, or squeeze his shoulders, or I saw that a lot.
[04:45] It was an ubiquitous interaction if you will.
[04:51] So, I did see that.
[04:54] Um, I saw physicality, but not anything that was, uh, I don't know how to correct, anything that looked aggressive, I suppose to define that.
[05:14] So, I never saw an aggressive move.
[05:15] I never saw anything that was Nonconsensual.
[05:17] Yeah, well, thank you.
[05:18] Okay.
[05:19] I never saw anything that was non-consensual.
[05:25] So, if he, well, maybe they didn't.
[05:28] I never saw anything that looked like they didn't like the hug or uh I never saw what I would characterize as anything that was non-consensual.
[05:41] Did you see, um, did you see him either getting receiving or participating in sexual conduct during massages?
[05:54] Understanding you never saw something non-consensual.
[05:57] Did you see him engage in sexual conduct during massages?
[06:02] Well, you could define sexual conduct as in, I did see women who could have been uh you know, less than normally clad for massage, but especially on the island where they would be in a bikini or possibly even topless, yeah, I did see that.
[06:23] So you would, But what about in so yes, I agree.
[06:33] That's one area like so women who are either not clothed or um topless with just a bottom on, um but beyond that, did you see as part of that him touching them?
[06:55] And again, I'm not talking about consent or not consent or age or you know, I'm I'm saying like there's multiple, multiple, you know, dozens and dozens of of women who have said that they were, that they engaged in um sexual contact and I agree there's a broad range of what that can how that can be defined.
[07:21] But defining it in the broadest of of terms.
[07:25] So, him being physical with women.
[07:28] I did see that, but nothing that was non-consensual.
[07:31] And in to address the issue of the large number of women who today say that he was non-consensual coercive with them, I'm not sure in my mind I sort of have to characterize the two distinct areas.
[07:58] There's one where is the women who are not of age.
[08:03] Therefore anything with them is immediately unconsensual.
[08:08] Correct.
[08:09] So let's start and I want to define anyone who's under age versus anybody who's over age, because I do think that there's a very significant differential between the two.
[08:21] Well, sort of all.
[08:23] Yes.
[08:24] Okay.
[08:24] Sorry.
[08:25] I I don't mean that I agree with you.
[08:28] Yes, I agree with you.
[08:30] Yeah, yeah.
[08:33] Okay.
[08:34] So I want to deal with the thing which is really why we're here.
[08:39] I mean, not that I'm not going to deal with the other, but I just want to make a distinction with underage situation because there's nothing about that that's right.
[08:51] I never saw anything with anybody who was certainly to be categorical in my from my trial.
[09:03] Let's deal that because that's something that I can say in, I never saw that with them at all.
[09:12] And I would say that has as described anyway in my trial did not happen as described.
[09:23] I'm not saying that Mr. Epstein did not do those things.
[09:27] I'm not as causing those, I'm not going to I don't feel comfortable saying that today given what I now know to be true.
[09:36] So I'm not here to defend him.
[09:40] But what I can say is that I did not participate in the that activity.
[09:48] And So let's divide this into two areas.
[09:51] Maybe there's more but we'll start with two areas.
[09:54] One is there was testimony and there's certainly been depositions and public statements that some of these young women have conversations with you about their age.
[10:09] So for example, conversations about the fact that they were in high school or conversations about the fact that they wanted to go to college one day which would necessarily mean well, not necessarily, but would would would be more likely to mean that they were in high school, they talk to you about that.
[10:27] And so were there were there women that you knew were underage?
[10:36] And I say that because that's different than whether um they were sexually abused in any way by Mr. Epstein, just merely their age and going to give him a massage.
[10:52] No.
[10:53] I never knew that and I can categorically state that had any child said to me that they were 14, 15, 16, maybe not 17, 17 in England, I mean if someone had said they were 17, I I've read so much that that did happen.
[11:15] I mean, I'm just but I had no I would never have permitted such a thing.
[11:20] I would I'd even know what I would have done.
[11:22] So some of the, I think even someone who test about it trial, that's certainly a publicly talked about, was as young as 14 when, when she was introduced to Mr. Epstein.
[11:41] Um, In in your mind today, you, you don't you, you kind of reject that that happened that you saw that.
[11:54] Meaning, you don't recall any obviously under 18 woman coming to give him a massage.
[12:02] Well, I believe you're talking about Jane and I'm very happy to address that.
[12:08] I actually don't think that the testimony is correct.
[12:14] I don't believe that No, no, no, I'm not, I just want to tell you Yeah, I don't want to get into it.
[12:17] No, no, no, I'm not.
[12:20] No, no, absolutely not.
[12:22] I don't want to go there either.
[12:23] I'm not, I'm not going to do that.
[12:26] But I believe that what took place with a lot of these people is that there was a slide, right?
[12:32] So there was a a zone, and I mean I he did meet her and I did meet her and I knew that she was a young child.
[12:43] I knew that she was not an adult, because but I don't believe he met her till she was 16.
[12:51] So I'm not, I'm not doing a he said she said.
[12:54] I'm not doing that because nobody That's not what we're here for.
[12:59] But he didn't meet her till she was 16.
[13:05] And the entire testimony of the 14, 15 and 16 year old is therefore not accurate.
[13:19] Did I meet her when she was 16 with her mother?
[13:22] I absolutely did and did I know that she was young?
[13:24] I absolutely did.
[13:27] But everything that took place that was alleged a trial and the 14 and 15 and 16 is is not accurate.
[13:43] And uh there's there's testimony or there's and again, I'm I'm using testimony in the broadest sense.
[13:50] Some of this is just public statements or something that's come out in civil lawsuits, um about you and Mr. Epstein giving um like an 18, you're turning 18 birthday card to somebody, which again, if true, would by definition mean you knew that she was under 18.
[14:14] Um, do you recall doing that?
[14:16] I do not.
[14:18] I mean, no memory of that at all.
[14:24] Um, And I believe that would be uh the person that called herself Kate has now announced herself in her own podcast for who she really is.
[14:40] Her name is.
[14:41] So I did not meet until actually she was either 20 or 21.
[14:51] So uh would be very hard for me to have given her an 18th birthday card.
[14:58] And the testimony the that slid back.
[15:05] Do you accept that at some point, and we talked about it yesterday about how Mr. Epstein changed.
[15:14] But at some point, Mr. Epstein definitely preferred younger women.
[15:23] I accept.
[15:24] And I think you said yes, but say it again since we're talking about it.
[15:28] Is that something that you in your mind one of the areas where he changed from when you first met him until later?
[15:38] So I I when I I just also wanted to be clear, I never understood that change to encompass children.
[15:52] I did see from when I met him, he was uh involved or involved or friends with, or whatever, however you want to characterize it, with women who were in their 20s.
[16:05] And then the slide to, you know, 18, younger looking women.
[16:17] But I never considered that this would encompass criminal behavior.
[16:27] ever.
[16:29] And so, when you read, I guess two different times, right?
[16:34] One was during the Florida investigation when there were eventually public statements from some of these these now women who who testified about what they did with Mr. Eptstein when they were under 18.
[16:57] Um at that point did you realize or did you think to yourself this happened or this could have happened?
[17:03] I missed it or um or were you at that point still in the mindset that they were either not telling the truth or or were not remembering what happened um the way that accurately?
[17:21] That's a very fair question.
[17:23] So I think that um my view of this at that time can call it as contemporaneously as it did because I don't think that stuff came out in public, right?
[17:37] I mean, I may have read things, but I don't my first real memory of that is at the trial, but um my viewpoint, if you will, was set from the minute that lied in her civil deposition.
[17:59] And I could never recover from that because What do you what do you which liar, what are you referring to?
[18:09] Her entire character characterization.
[18:17] Okay.
[18:18] of Now I I I I don't remember how she came and whether I did but I'm talking about the first time she came to Estein's house, which I knew to be false.
[18:29] So from that first lie of that description, I could never recover from that.
[18:35] I see, understand.
[18:36] Okay.
[18:38] So, and that tainted, sorry, just so that we're clear, that it tainted then the the testimony of everybody else that I saw that came post that, because I had my own personal experience which I knew to be false.
[18:56] Yeah.
[18:58] And the reason why I I think and I I I said to Mr. Marcus that this morning that we were going to talk about this because when I think about you and the public's perception of Mr. Epstein, um the public is left with the view that nobody in the world knows what really happened except for you.
[19:34] Okay?
[19:35] Now you've explained the last day and a half how some of that's just a misperception because you weren't, you didn't have a key to his house.
[19:43] You weren't around as much as as maybe everybody claims you were, okay?
[19:50] But there still is this perception out there that oh my gosh, if if if we could talk to Miss Maxwell, we would know um how horrible um Mr. Epstein was or how misperceived he was.
[20:06] Whatever the truth is about Mr. Epstein.
[20:10] And the challenge in my mind, just to be, I told you I would tell you when I had issues.
[20:18] And the challenge in my mind is that so many women have have said that Mr. Epstein um sexually assaulted them, whether juveniles or or or adults, that um I don't find it you know, at some that's persuasive, right?
[20:54] That that happened.
[20:55] Okay.
[20:55] So, and so if if that's persuasive, then and I think it's without beyond contestation that he preferred younger women.
[21:12] And and and it's also beyond, I think at this point there were certainly circumstances of underage women, um well, I don't want to say that that you agree with me on that.
[21:27] I certainly believe that there were younger aged women that were abused by him.
[21:33] Okay.
[21:36] Um And so, and then, so the layer that I want you to that I really want to have a frank discussion about is some of these women have said, oh yes, you know, Miss Maxwell was there, you know, to varying degrees.
[21:58] She saw me there.
[21:59] She the door was open when I was there, and then and then much more egregious, right?
[22:04] That you participated and that you were part of it.
[22:08] And so what I what I really want you to have an opportunity to to to say to us is where on the spectrum the truth is, whether it's somewhere in the middle, whether it's one extreme or another extreme, understanding in my mind, I'm talking about 1994, 5 to whenever, late 90s, early 2000s.
[22:40] And and let me just interrupt and All I would say is we're not here to say anything one way or the other about Epstein.
[22:49] I agree with you that that the evidence is overwhelming against him and and he he's his own person and has to deal with that.
[22:59] But Glen can speak about what she knows and from her point of view and what she did and and that's what you can talk about Glen.
[23:11] Okay.
[23:12] So I think it it's helpful to put this on the the time on the calendar, because I think without that we we're lost.
[23:26] So I would say we'll go from the beginning.
[23:28] 91, no, two, no, three, no, four, no, five, no, six, no.
[23:37] In that time frame, you have the allegations of Jane, who I dispute.
[23:45] I don't think he met her until she was.
[23:47] Let's not talk about individual.
[23:48] Oh, no, no, I'm just saying, but there's only, but there's only so in that time period, I'm only aware of her.
[23:54] I'm aware of uh a girl who said, but and those I I don't know of any others and if there are other people who are making allegations about, I don't I'm not even, I'm not actually aware of that.
[24:08] I may have read them in the but I no, I don't know.
[24:11] So I think in the early 90s period, I think I'm fairly confident and I can say that at least as characterized it's just it's just false.
[24:23] It's just it didn't happen as said now.
[24:25] Didn't Did it happen?
[24:27] Did he Did he involve himself?
[24:31] I knew about Jane because I saw her come to the house, but I saw her with her mother.
[24:37] I know that her allegations are that there were oh geez, for instance.
[24:47] But the people that she suggests were in her Ogies didn't even work for Epstein until 98 or 99.
[24:59] Did he do Ogies with those people and her?
[25:04] I don't know anybody who was there who said that they did.
[25:07] I certainly didn't see it, so I can't say that that happened.
[25:12] Um, did she do it with someone else?
[25:14] I don't know.
[25:16] The stories really start, the the the allegations really begin with.
[25:23] And I think that you have to shift his behavior such as it was.
[25:30] Bar there was one in California who made an allegation.
[25:34] There was a woman who said that she and she's I didn't know about.
[25:38] And so I think I would call her the first person I'd be aware of him using his position to sorry to interrupt you but I just want to I don't want I don't want to have you, I don't think it's helpful for for us.
[25:58] To have you kind of address each allegation.
[26:00] I want you to clear your mind and just tell the truth about it.
[26:03] So I know saying you're not telling the truth.
[26:05] I'm saying just putting aside what other people have said or what their lawyers have said or what they testified to or you know, their rumors in the press.
[26:17] Push those aside.
[26:18] You, you were there and um and so when, when you go back to that time period, 92, 93, 99, 2000, 2001, during that time period, um what did you see when it comes to young women and massages?
[26:40] All right.
[26:41] So I saw him receive massages.
[26:44] He had regular massuers in the 90s.
[26:47] People who were standard and who who traveled with him and I saw that.
[26:54] He was living in that Iranian house and now that I look back, he had I didn't stay there, but I would go to manage the house.
[27:02] I would see women, uh models, or people that he would have come to the house.
[27:12] Um I I know that I thought that he was with Eva still at that time.
[27:20] That's what I believed.
[27:22] And then subsequently believe that even though she married him, I actually subsequently believe that the baby that she had was his.
[27:31] Can I interrupt for one second?
[27:33] Yeah.
[27:33] Can I just ask some some basic top line questions.
[27:37] Yes.
[27:38] Were you ever in a massage room with him and a massuse?
[27:44] Yes.
[27:45] Okay.
[27:46] When was that?
[27:49] Well, he would come in sometimes and he would like say, oh like put give her a massage here or he would grab my, you know, but not often.
[28:00] I mean, he did come in from time to time.
[28:02] Were you ever in a massage room with him with a a massuse that was naked or giving him any sexual favors?
[28:10] I never saw that.
[28:12] That I remember.
[28:14] Okay.
[28:15] Um, did you did you ever did did any of the massuses ever discuss with you giving that that they gave sexual favors to?
[28:25] No.
[28:27] Um, did you ever see an underage girl go into a massage room with Mr. Epstein?
[28:35] No.
[28:37] Um, if if you had seen that, what would you have done?
[28:41] Would you have left?
[28:45] I can't even can see I I can't even can see of I can't imagine what I would have done.
[28:55] All right, I'm sorry.
[28:56] No, that's okay.
[28:56] Okay.
[28:58] Did you ever observe um Mr. Epstein masturbating during a massage?
[29:04] Yes.
[29:05] Um I mean, when on I'd seen him on a massage table, I had seen him masturbate.
[29:14] I don't know if there was a massuse present, but I've seen him on a massage table.
[29:16] Okay.
[29:17] Sorry.
[29:18] Did you ever see him masturbate with a massuse, you know, with with a naked woman, um either giving a massage or reporting to give a massage.
[29:35] I I don't remember seeing that.
[29:40] Um, did you give him massages by the way?
[29:43] I mean, there's a photo of you rubbing his feet and I think I I've never I I certainly have been in the massage room with him and I have certainly rubbed his feet and when he would we talk and but I I was not a massuse and I didn't perform massage on him.
[30:08] Did you, um along during the over the years, did you pay the massuers?
[30:16] I I it was typically not my job, but if there was nobody else normally, so in Palm Beach the houseman would give the money, and in New York he would do that because I wouldn't be in New York when he, I mean I don't remember ever paying a Massuse in New York.
[30:41] So it wasn't your it wasn't your job on a regular basis to pay the massusers.
[30:47] So if there was a massuse seven days a week, um it wasn't expected that seven days a week you would be the one handing them money.
[30:54] Oh yeah.
[30:55] Mostly I would know.
[30:57] I'm not saying I never did it because that wouldn't be true, but it was not my job to pay him.
[31:02] I mostly recall he would either pay them himself.
[31:06] He would have money or the houseman, and I think some of them would have probably received checks.
[31:15] Um And so just picking up on what Mr. Marcus was just asking you, um, did you participate in sexual activity with him with a massuse like at the same time?
[31:30] No.
[31:31] And so this the test, I don't know if there was testimony, but the women who have said that that happened, um categorically that's not true.
[31:41] That is categorically not true.
[31:44] Um, Did you moving past the and moving into the 2000s?
[31:52] I mean, I just want to say that I have been, I mean, I remember there be times when he'd be getting a massage and I would be in the room.
[32:00] I could be on his feet and somebody else could be on his feet and we could be talking.
[32:04] So there is that.
[32:08] But that's not you're not talking about something that's sexual.
[32:11] You're talking about literally just rubbing his feet.
[32:13] Yes.
[32:14] Okay.
[32:15] But I mean No, that's not what I'm talking about.
[32:17] I'm saying well he there could be sometimes the women might be topless who were giving that so you could say that was sexual in the context.
[32:29] No, I'm I'm talking about the repeated reports of of certain sex acts happening with you present and even participating.
[32:39] No.
[32:40] Um, Did you did in the 2000s time period.
[32:46] So moving a little more recently when you talked about it yesterday about how your us relationship with with Mr. changed and was changing and and and you ultimately met somebody else.
[33:03] Um did you observe um any you know, massages or young women giving him massages later on.
[33:16] So after 2000, 2001 time period.
[33:19] I'm sure I did.
[33:21] And was there anything different about what you observed during that period and the 90s as far as the frequency, his conduct towards them?
[33:32] I think the frequency increased.
[33:35] I think he went from one to two in that time period.
[33:42] And but I did not see I have no recollection of ever seeing a child entering the house and giving him a massage.
[33:58] I at that time he had moved me out of the main house.
[34:01] I had moved into an office on a lessy, the form look under the stairs.
[34:10] So I had an office where I would be that was not part of that of part of the house.
[34:18] If I saw people and I'm not saying I didn't see people come to give him a massage, that that wouldn't be true either.
[34:26] But if I saw someone, let's say, I wouldn't, I don't remember ever seeing anybody that I would characterize as a child.
[34:40] Now, specifically someone who accused me of seeing her, at the time when she came, if I did see her and I don't believe I did see her or meet her at all.
[34:53] But if she did, she was as her she's described herself now was very mature and looked in her 20s.
[35:05] So could somebody have come that was more mature looking than the allegation of what she did look like with the photograph that was produced as evidence?
[35:16] Yes.
[35:18] I never recall at any time seeing what I would characterize as a child coming to give him a massage and going upstairs.
[35:34] Did I see people come?
[35:36] I absolutely did.
[35:38] Did I I just didn't see children.
[35:43] I didn't see anybody I would think of as a child.
[35:47] And if I had seen a child, I wouldn't I I'm not sure what I would have done.
[35:55] Did you just talking, like coming out a little bit of just bigger picture?
[36:01] Do at at the time that you were in his life, did do you was he a um did he seem to you to be a sexual deviant or or um I don't know what the right way to describe it.
[36:16] But when you say to me, um he was getting massages every single day, right?
[36:20] So young women were everywhere, multiple massages on some days, flew with the women to the island, to New York, you know, Paris, there's always women, they're always rubbing him um giving him massages.
[36:32] Um I think it's it would be an understatement to say that that's not normal.
[36:38] I agree.
[36:41] Um we we've all kind of been part of the Epstein um story over the past several years, but you were there at the time, okay?
[36:55] Um what was it like at the time?
[36:57] I mean, was he a a a creepy guy when it came to that sort of thing?
[37:01] Was he protective of how he looked publicly image wise like at the time, what was that like?
[37:10] I think if he had been creepy, like as you would define and you would expect someone who was living that lifestyle to be creepy, I don't think the women would have been there.
[37:22] I don't think that they thought of him as creepy.
[37:29] And if they did, I never saw them behave like he was being was it a lot?
[37:39] Yes, it was, for sure.
[37:43] I found it overwhelming and I couldn't understand why it was interesting because to me it's not interesting.
[37:53] Um, but he as he defined it, he found it invigorating, he liked being with younger people.
[38:00] I'm not I'm just younger people.
[38:02] I'm just saying because they gave him ideas and they were up to date on music and.
[38:08] Yeah, but that's different like I'm just saying I'
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