[00:01] Right, we're resuming the recorded proffer of Miss Maxwell.
[00:06] It is 2:16 on Thursday, July 24th.
[00:11] The recording device is now on.
[00:14] So when we stopped to take a break, we were talking about um what has been publicly discussed as um a black book or the Epstein list.
[00:33] And um and that's where we are.
[00:35] So you said you you think you might know or that you're aware of kind of the the origin of of this narrative.
[00:42] Right.
[00:43] I just want to reiterate it again.
[00:46] There is no list that I am aware of at never anytime at least during the period of time when I was Okay.
[00:53] Present.
[00:54] Okay.
[01:15] The origin of this story I believe begins or it has a it has a beginning in 2009 and then it has a it has a prequel.
[01:27] But we have to start in 2009.
[01:33] In 2009, there is uh Epstein is I think out of jail.
[01:47] And there are civil suits taking place.
[01:52] Many of these are coming out of a disgraced law firm Rostin Adler, Rostin Rosenfeld and Adler.
[02:17] At that law firm is a lawyer who started there in April May 2009 called Brad Edwards.
[02:40] In 2009 allegedly the FBI gets a call in October of 2009 from Brad Edwards and he allegedly tells them that he has come across a piece of evidence that belongs to Epstein that contains a list of all of his clients and victims, underage girls, massage therapists and his uh the men who are having sex with them.
[03:34] And he becomes he Brad Edwards becomes a cooperating witness cooperating confidential confidential informant, sorry, confidential informant for them and in a sting operation obtains the list from a former butler of Epstein's called Alfredo Rodriguez.
[04:01] And it becomes evidence in the civil suit.
[04:26] In the uh Alfredo Rodriguez is subsequently prosecuted for having an AK-47 or something weird, some guns or something.
[04:39] And goes to trial and there's a criminal complaint that the FBI produce and in that criminal complaint it says that Brad Edwards became aware of the list, that we'll call it the list for the purposes of this after Alfredo Rodriguez's two depositions that are held in Epstein's Epstein's civil suit.
[05:09] It's in the FBI's affidavit that the evidence was collected and Brad became aware of it after the second deposition.
[05:19] It's in the criminal complaint.
[05:25] The truth is different from what's in both the criminal complaint and in that FBI affidavit and in Brad Edward's own statements on the subject.
[05:47] The truth is that Alfredo Rodriguez was deposed twice, once in July and once in August.
[05:59] And in the July deposition told Brad Edwards that he had handwritten notes or a journal or whatever in the deposition.
[06:12] And Brad Edwards replies, well, we're going to come back for a second deposition and the second deposition takes place in August.
[06:27] What this means is that Brad Edwards had access to the list from sometime between July and August until when he actually called the FBI in October.
[06:44] So we're talking six months or so.
[06:55] Rostin's firm was raided a few days after the list went into the FBI's hands and uh subsequently Rostin himself was prosecuted for Rico and I believe went to jail for 50 years.
[07:18] As part of that Rico case, he admitted to on the record and was I don't know whether he was prosecuted for creating fake settlements and fake evidence in Epstein's case.
[07:44] In 2009 simultaneously was this was going on.
[07:59] My boyfriend Ted Wait was asked for $10 million to keep me out of any of Epstein's civil suits.
[08:12] Up until then, I had not been in any of Epstein's civil suits.
[08:19] In fact, I wasn't even sure save for the first time I was mentioned was by I hadn't been I was basically nowhere.
[08:36] Um and then Ted was called for this $10 million and had been shown his people had been shown evidence that included the list.
[08:59] Uh the flight logs and various other pieces of evidence.
[09:08] Now we're going to the prequel part of this story so then it can tie to how this starts.
[09:18] Um in 2007, Epstein signs the non prosecution agreement.
[09:34] He then fights the prosecution agreement debated through the DOJ or whatever happened there and is goes to the court in 2008 when it it's accepted or whatever that is.
[09:50] Vilafana was the lead prosecutor or the lead yes in that case and um she I think was not happy or with the outcome and utilized at that time Brad Edwards to file the CVRA case.
[10:24] Now what is what I have managed to understand from this is within the OPR itself, there is evidence there it says that Brad Edwards was the only lawyer that she was allowed to talk to.
[10:40] So I just want to preface that.
[10:45] The reason why uh I know that she went behind Acosta's back and everything else to do this is because Brad Edwards in a podcast made the revelation.
[11:04] What he says is that he'd never heard of the CVRA case before when Villa called him and told him to file it.
[11:16] The sole purpose of the CVRA was to overturn the non prosecution agreement.
[11:28] So what I believe is that Villa worked with Brad Edwards who she had also been he was the lawyer that she had selected as a pro bono lawyer for some of the victims.
[11:46] And he was also working for Rostin's firm that was under Rico investigation for that entire time creating fake evidence in Epstein's case.
[11:59] And she had just filed hidden secret using Edwards to overturn MPA by filing the number this CVRA case that sole purpose was to overturn it.
[12:12] And so when he approached her with the list, this was part of the effort to utilize and find new evidence to support the overturning either of the MPA and or of a new case against Epstein.
[12:40] Because Brad Edwards or I don't know Brad Edwards, because Rostin's firm asked my then boyfriend for $10 million to kick me out of suits that I had no knowledge of at that time whatsoever, I now know that the base of the story was a blackmail of a billionaire, because Ted Wade was a multibillionaire.
[13:03] He had everything.
[13:04] He was way, way more wealthy than Epstein, if anyone cares.
[13:14] And that is the reason why Ted and I broke up or is the basis of it.
[13:20] So And that list was created so then the the the masseuse that were on that list.
[13:32] I'd never heard of some of them.
[13:35] I I not even from the civil suits that had come up since I've seen it.
[13:41] And this is me now knowing what's in the list today.
[13:44] And I believe that oh, uh Alfredo Rodriguez.
[13:53] So there's a metamorphosis of this list.
[13:57] So the original statement that Brad Edwards makes that's in the documents contemporaneously is that it's pieces of paper that Alfredo has.
[14:09] It then morphs into something that Alfredo took a book that Alfredo took from Epstein's computer, but there's no computer, I know, certainly not in 2005 when this was allegedly taken that came out as a book.
[14:24] And then it moved into at the civil time my civil cases into a book that was taken from my computer.
[14:31] And then it moved into the Southern District of New York as a combination list of mine and Epstein's.
[14:38] That is a a a metamorphosis through documents that you can trace.
[14:45] So so the the there in your mind or from what you just described there is a list.
[14:56] It's just it's just manufactured.
[15:00] I mean have you seen the the the the list even fake like do you know I I haven't seen it but but So I'm just I was.
[15:09] So I guess my my thing is that what Brad Edwards says in all of these things is in in the paperwork and what not.
[15:16] And in so all this story is basically controlled by five people.
[15:23] There's four alleged victims that speak about the lists and the blackmail and the men and the sex and whatnot.
[15:32] And and the lawyers and now the prosecutors, sorry, the Southern District of New York for sure, but no one else.
[15:42] None of these stories carry from any of the 44 alleged original victims.
[15:47] They never ever say that they were farmed out to anybody.
[15:50] But the list itself Yes. Where is it?
[15:54] That there is no list, but Brad Edwards said that he created the list.
[15:59] So that's what I was confused about.
[16:01] Sorry, he created a list.
[16:03] He so in that book that Alfredo Rodriguez produced that became evidence, exhibit 52 in my trial, have markings all over it, circles and dots and whatnot.
[16:19] And I'll uh Brad Edwards says that he got Alfredo Rodriguez to mark up the book of all the people who were involved.
[16:28] It includes Alan Deshwitz for the record, who's marked.
[16:32] I don't remember what it does with Donald Trump.
[16:34] I I don't I don't know.
[16:35] You'd have to look.
[16:37] I don't have it.
[16:40] But um I believe.
[16:44] So he did he marked up.
[16:46] I don't know who somebody marked up that book of names.
[16:49] And I think all the names of the people that they went for were originally selected between two sources.
[16:58] One was this alleged book of names, and one was also from the telephone logs that were collected from the house in Palm Beach.
[17:08] And just to finish it off, um there is a note, um I have some papers for you if you wanted them where Brad Edwards says that he has a list of 25 men that he got money off.
[17:25] So, okay, so so so the list that everybody, the black book, the list, what what you're saying is that you're you're you're exhibit 52 from your trial, which is like a more of an address book or rolodex type thing that Mr. Rodriguez, Alfredo Rodriguez, your understanding is that somewhere along the way he went through and kind of marked that list to say.
[17:57] I I don't know where that book actually comes from.
[18:00] Okay.
[18:01] I don't know what that book is.
[18:04] That book is some type of a compilation.
[18:12] But what it is is it's just pieces of paper with type.
[18:16] So if you had you could have made a list.
[18:23] I could put when you're referring to something that's been public for a long, if we're thinking about the same thing, you're talking about the you're right.
[18:32] It's like a bunch of different types of paper or or whatever.
[18:36] I only have a copy of it, but with big parts of it redacted publicly because people's addresses and whatnot.
[18:41] Yes.
[18:42] Yes, that's what I'm talking about.
[18:45] Okay.
[18:45] So it Oh, perfect.
[18:49] Yes.
[18:50] So you will find We're looking at exhibit 52 now.
[18:52] Okay.
[18:53] So you're looking at an exhibit 52.
[18:56] So the one they produced, they the Southern District of New York actually produced a book for me to see it as evidence the actual thing it was.
[19:05] And I it has marks, it has tabs, it has things, it has names I've never seen.
[19:12] It had like that list of those that list was basically the names that they chose to produce a trial.
[19:21] Now, in Rostin Adler's firm, I also have some documents where Rostin his his original scheme of Rostin Adler was to place prostitutes.
[19:38] He had a a bar, a dancy bar where he had girls.
[19:45] And I believe he would use them and put them as fake secretaries in people's offices and then she might touch him or he might touch her or something and boom he got $25,000 for that.
[19:56] And those girls, I'm not saying that those are the girls that came in Epstein's case necessarily.
[20:14] But the So, um so but again, let's like so we're separating the evidence that came in at your trial.
[20:33] And what you just talked about with Brad Edwards and Mr. Rodriguez, um during the time that you were with Mr. Epstein and even in the 2000s when you were around less frequently, you never observed or you never saw any sort of list or black book or a list of individuals who um you know, linked to certain masseuses or anything like that.
[20:58] Absolutely.
[20:59] Absolutely.
[21:00] No.
[21:01] There is no list.
[21:03] There is no I am not aware of any blackmail.
[21:10] I I never heard I never heard that.
[21:12] I never saw it and I never I never imagined it.
[21:18] Um while we're on this topic, just again, I know we're jumping around and we've been going on for a while, so I apologize, but um there's recently been reports about a birthday book that you assembled for Mr. Epstein, I think for his 50th birthday in 2003.
[21:39] That's true.
[21:40] What do you, what do you know about that?
[21:44] So, um my mom did a birthday book for my father at his 60th.
[21:54] And when I Epstein would talk about his 50th, he said, I don't know what I'm going to do.
[21:57] And I said, well, it's a nice thing is my mom did this book for my dad.
[22:03] He said, I love that idea.
[22:06] He said, um can you help coordinate it?
[22:13] And he organized who he called a lot of the people himself.
[22:20] I coordinated the putting together of the book and some in some instances I called people to ask them to contribute.
[22:28] And what was in the book?
[22:29] Like what was the ask of the of the people you called?
[22:32] It says 50th birthday, saying anything you want on a piece of paper.
[22:35] Yeah.
[22:36] Okay.
[22:38] I mean, nothing more.
[22:39] Right.
[22:40] I mean it was an obvious question, but you basically his folks were invited to send something to you to celebrate his birthday.
[22:49] Yes, to say happy birthday with like have a wonderful day or something else.
[22:53] It it there was no there was no ask.
[22:57] And but I wasn't responsible for everybody in that book and there were people that he would ask himself to contribute.
[23:05] And do you remember some do you remember specific names of individuals who did send letters or who didn't contribute?
[23:15] It's been so long.
[23:18] I want to tell you that I I don't remember.
[23:21] I honestly don't remember.
[23:23] Do you?
[23:24] The the the article talks about um several names, but including the folks the article, which is on Donald Trump.
[23:31] Do you remember President Trump submitting um a letter or a card or a note?
[23:38] I I I don't.
[23:40] Um do you think the articles well, do you remember seeing um that book or any portion of the letters in your discovery in New York?
[23:54] Yes.
[23:54] Okay.
[23:55] What do you remember seeing?
[23:56] I remember um there was there were some portions of that book.
[24:07] But what surprised me yeah, what surprised me was how few there were because I thought if you had those, where are the rest?
[24:21] Um there was none of Mr. Trump.
[24:24] In your discovery.
[24:25] In my discovery, sorry, President Trump, there was nothing from President Trump.
[24:29] And do you remember but separate and apart from your discovery, do you remember one way or the other whether President Trump submitted a letter for his 50th birthday?
[24:37] I do not remember.
[24:38] Um and the the article that references the letter talks about um like a like either a naked a picture of naked woman or something like like that.
[24:52] Do you have any recollection of that?
[24:54] I do not.
[24:56] Right, just No, I don't.
[24:58] Um do you remember So what do you remember seeing from your discovery around the the book?
[25:06] Like you said portions of it or some of the pictures.
[25:08] What do you remember?
[25:09] I I remember there were maybe I I just want to say about the discovery that I had about maybe this is an exaggeration or I'm not sure, but in my mind it's about close to 5 million pages, 5 million documents.
[25:30] It was a lot.
[25:32] And of that giant document dump that I received, I was only a maybe as much as 30 to 35% I was never able to access.
[25:45] And this is documented on at the court.
[25:50] And so I cannot say that I saw everything because I didn't.
[25:54] Yeah, okay.
[25:56] I just wanted to know that.
[25:59] And I think that that was by design.
[26:02] But you but you do remember I do remember some pages.
[26:05] Seeing some pages.
[26:06] Okay.
[26:07] Do you remember which pages you saw?
[26:10] Like from it was from who who had written those letters or no?
[26:13] I really don't remember.
[26:14] I'm sorry.
[26:14] It's it's okay.
[26:16] Um did you did you and or so the same questions we've asked about some other individuals, did you have did you meet Bill Gates over the years?
[26:26] Yes.
[26:27] Um because of your relationship with Mr. Epstein or separate?
[26:31] That one well, I met Mr. Gate.
[26:33] I went to the TED conference.
[26:35] I gave I went to TED conference and I actually spoke at the TED conference.
[26:39] Not the main stage, the sub stage.
[26:41] And I also gave several TEDx, but and I met him there, but we weren't friendly.
[26:44] And I actually did uh meet him uh because I knew his I don't know if he's a chief of staff or whoever Boris and I met him I think once.
[27:00] I I may have met him actually at 71st Street.
[27:04] I I may have once.
[27:07] I I don't remember if I met him there or it's a restaurant.
[27:09] I don't remember.
[27:10] And that would have been because of Epstein because Epstein was friendly with Boris and Boris that's all I remember.
[27:17] Do you know whether um Mr. Gates traveled with Mr. Epstein on his plane to any of his houses?
[27:24] So if that that friendship was after, you know, was in the late 2000s, so if I met him, like I said, I went to Epstein's house maybe once or twice, and maybe I met him there, I don't remember.
[27:36] So you don't know.
[27:37] So I wouldn't know if he had been on.
[27:38] And you weren't you don't recall ever being on like playing with him flying to the island or to anywhere?
[27:43] No.
[27:44] Um do you know someone named Reed Hoffman?
[27:49] I do.
[27:50] Who's that?
[27:51] Reed's a Silicon Valley guy.
[27:53] Is what?
[27:54] Silicon Valley.
[27:57] And how do you know him?
[27:59] Um through my friends in San Francisco.
[28:02] I have a I used to have a very close friend who was in San Francisco who's part of that whole have several actually or had.
[28:09] So is that a relationship you had kind of separate and apart from Mr. Epstein?
[28:12] Oh, separate.
[28:14] Do you know whether um Mr. Epstein had a relationship with uh Reed Hoffman?
[28:21] I don't know.
[28:22] Did you ever observe Mr. Hoffman flying anywhere with you or Mr. Epstein um or getting massages?
[28:28] No.
[28:29] Um So there was there's a list a list of multiple masseuses that that is floating around.
[28:51] I think you had you know the discovery, I think you were just talking about that.
[28:55] Um that list, do you know how that list was created?
[29:03] No.
[29:04] I that all that stuff that came out of that book, I now find suspect.
[29:10] As as far as it's part of the story you just told us.
[29:12] Yes.
[29:13] Now, I'm not saying it's all fake.
[29:15] I don't know what's real and what's not.
[29:17] I don't know what name is true now that it's been to my mind anyway, now that it has been without a doubt contaminated and possibly fraudulent.
[29:32] I I I'm not I don't know.
[29:35] I mean obviously the numbers that I recognize are my own, those are real, but how it was actually ended up put together and compiled and the purposes for it, for which then they blackmail my boyfriend, now I'm I'm just.
[29:53] Over the years when you were serving as like the general manager, so the mid 90s all the way into the 2000s, did you or do you know whether anyone maintained a list of all the masseuses like a running list?
[30:08] So there would so there's two thing well three ways.
[30:11] So I know that uh the house itself, John Alessi had a rolodex that he kept the names and numbers of all the people that came to the house so that he could call.
[30:29] So because I only was with Epstein even at best half the time.
[30:36] So when I was there, he had like his chief of staff who could find whatever he needed.
[30:41] And when I wasn't there, he had to rely on somebody else, right?
[30:44] So typically John Alessi or whoever else.
[30:48] So everybody whoever was traveling with him or how wherever he was, he needed somebody else to access information.
[30:54] So he had an an assistant chief who was his secretary, who would be the one that would update his his computer.
[31:04] You know, like everybody has an address book.
[31:07] But was was what you're describing which I'm I'm not that makes sense.
[31:13] I'm just was that a list of masseuses or a list of people that might need to be contacted, which would necessarily include a lot of masseuses.
[31:20] That's the latter.
[31:23] Um And did you did you update that?
[31:28] Like were you part of were you one of the people that would would add names to it?
[31:32] Like if if if a masseuse came and leaves and Mr. says, yes, she was good, would you be part of like how how was the list kind of maintained?
[31:39] Or who maintained it?
[31:40] Well typically not because there would be an assistant who would do that.
[31:46] Plus Epstein would not allow me to answer the telephone ever.
[31:55] So or maintain or keep any of his messages in the office or at the house.
[32:01] So typically that wouldn't be because I wouldn't be the one.
[32:07] Could I say to you I never did it?
[32:09] No, of course not because that just seems ludicrous.
[32:15] But as a rule of thumb, the answer would be no.
[32:21] Um during the 200789 investigate the investigation out of the Southern District of Florida.
[32:33] So you said that you weren't contacted by law enforcement.
[32:37] I was.
[32:38] After Mr. Epstein was charged, did you have conversations with him about the investigation?
[32:46] He never talked to me about it.
[32:49] Did you um I mean, I can't let's put it this way.
[32:52] If he did, I have no recollection of it.
[32:55] I mean, I'm sure he must have said, this is all whatever he said or it's nothing or whatever.
[33:00] I mean, I just don't have any I just don't have any memory.
[33:07] I I just I was I was with Ted.
[33:09] My I was like gone.
[33:12] I mean, plus I just didn't want to know either.
[33:16] I suppose.
[33:16] So you don't know firsthand why the US attorney in Florida made the deal that he did.
[33:25] I mean you weren't part of that discussion along the way like Mr. didn't say, I'm getting a good deal or you know, I something's happening with the case that's very good.
[33:35] You were you you to the extent you know anything about it, it's just from what you've heard or read from others, not from Mr.
[33:41] Epstein, is that right?
[33:43] He never talked about the non prosecution directly with me, no.
[33:47] But um he did.
[33:49] But it's still enforceable less to him.
[33:52] Yeah.
[33:54] I mean, he never said, hey, do you are you happy with this deal like that?
[33:59] But I understood I he never he never enjoins me to the MPA, but I understand that he included me specifically and I'll tell you why.
[34:14] Well let it's it's okay.
[34:15] You don't need to get into that.
[34:16] No no, I don't want to talk about the legal the the that's on appeal.
[34:21] I'm just No I the reason for my question just to be I'm not trying to hide something.
[34:26] there's there's a very strong belief that he got a very good deal and that and and that he should he should have been sentenced to more time or got a different sentence from the Feds than a non prosecution agreement.
[34:42] And I'm not asking you to apply on that, but I'm wondering whether um he ever talked to you about that, but it sounds like he didn't.
[34:49] But he got a good deal?
[34:50] No.
[34:51] I think actually, well, his comments that I've read was that he didn't get a good deal and I think that the, you know, when he fought it so hard is because he didn't think he did.
[35:00] When when he was serving a sentence, were you ever were you around during that time?
[35:05] Like when he was allowed to leave during the day or traveled during the day?
[35:08] I never called him.
[35:09] I never saw him and I never went to the jail.
[35:13] Um so I'm going to ask you questions that you shouldn't read into them.
[35:19] I just want to know whether you whether they they resonate with you.
[35:24] Um have you ever had any contact with um any representative that you know of from Mossad, the Israeli Intelligence Agency.
[35:33] Can you ask me that again?
[35:34] Has have you ever had any contact with an individual that you understand to be from Mossad and Israeli Intelligence Agency.
[35:42] Well not deliberately.
[35:44] Pardon me?
[35:44] Not deliberately.
[35:46] Okay.
[35:47] Um and did you know?
[35:49] We asked this, we talked about this a little bit earlier, but just to put a finer point on it, did you ever know that Mr. did you ever were you ever told you have a thing that Mr. Epstein was getting any money from any intelligence agency including Mossad?
[36:04] I well I don't believe so, but I wouldn't know.
[36:07] I mean, I would be very surprised if he did.
[36:10] I don't think so.
[36:11] No.
[36:16] We've talked about a lot of names and I'm sure we've there's some that we haven't covered.
[36:21] Are there any um foreign nationals.
[36:28] So right now we've talked about um some British the Royal Family a little bit and and maybe high society folks in Britain.
[36:35] Were there any international um businessmen or politicians that that had a very close relationship or a close relationship with Mr. Epstein that we haven't already talked about.
[36:59] Of the top of my head I can think of the Hood Barack.
[37:04] Did you said that Mr. Epstein at some point in the mid to late 90s started taking testosterone.
[37:14] Did you ever know him to take any other drugs?
[37:19] No.
[37:21] I mean he took pills for his heart, I think.
[37:28] But I don't know other no substances.
[37:33] What do you know anything about his heart condition?
[37:37] I know we talked about this at, you know, 945 this morning, but do you know anything about his heart condition beyond that you understood he had a heart condition that affected his ability to um to have sex?
[37:52] Other than what he told
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